The Gaming Den

I was used to the 3.0 bard, and the 3.5 bard went through a few changes. Does anyone have some tactics and spell choices they'd recommend, with an archery/support goal?

Fuchs wrote:I was used to the 3.0 bard, and the 3.5 bard went through a few changes. Does anyone have some tactics and spell choices they'd recommend, with an archery/support goal?

First thing you should do is gather up all the bonuses to Inspire Courage you can get your hands on.

That means things like Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium), Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting), Song of Creation (BoED), Badge of Valor (MiC), Masterwork Instrument (Complete Adventurer), Vest of Legends (DMG II), and so forth.

Don't forget things like "Lyric Casting" (or whatever the Complete Mage feat is that lets you cast while singing), and multiclass feats and prestige classes go a long way to upping a bard's potential. "Dragonfire Inspiration" (Dragon Magic) is a powerful alternative to normal Inspire Courage, dealing Xd6 energy damage instead of +X attack/damage.

"Song of the White Raven" and Crusader/Warblade multiclassing is the perfect way to make a melee bard. For a spellcasting bard, a Sublime Chord dip is a must have, allowing you to get up to 9th level spells, and War Weaver is certainly a popular choice to augment that.

Tactics wise, remember that you can keep your song going as long as you want out of battle, and that it'll continue for a few rounds after you stop (at least as long as most battles take), so it can often be basically a free action. Fascinate / Suggestion is almost unresistable unless people have outright immunity. Use spells to further augment the party, or maneuvers in the case of a SotWR Bard. Even in the case of a SotWR bard, don't forget that you can still totally use wands and UMD and crap. Speaking of which, there's a level 2 Bard spell in Complete Mage called MAgic Savant that is cast as a swift action that allows you to basically take 14 on UMD checks for the rest of a combat and then some.

Bards also get a few sweet exclusive spells, like Glibness.

Played right, Bards can be pretty monstrous. They really get a ton of love from supplements. More than most everyone else.

Thanks. It's a level 1 bard so far, and I went the archery route (rapid shot and point blank shot as feat choices), but that might not be the best option if we're primarily fighting in melee. Looks like it's back to weapon finesse at level 3.

Masterwork instrument might not be possible since I picked singing as performance.

In 3.0 I went with the greater magic weapon cast on arrows and bows, but that's been struck from the bard's list in 3.5.

Fuchs wrote:Thanks. It's a level 1 bard so far, and I went the archery route (rapid shot and point blank shot as feat choices), but that might not be the best option if we're primarily fighting in melee. Looks like it's back to weapon finesse at level 3.

Masterwork instrument might not be possible since I picked singing as performance.

In 3.0 I went with the greater magic weapon cast on arrows and bows, but that's been struck from the bard's list in 3.5.

You should have taken Song of the Heart at level 1 to get a leg up on your Inspire Courage. You should get Inspirational Boost at level 2 as your first level 1 spell, and should probably be able to buy a Badge of Courage by about level 3. Heck, you can probably convince the party to pitch in their share of the loot for your Badge too. After all, they're the ones who are having sheer liquid awesome pumped through their veins when you sing.

By that point, you'll already be giving a +4 attack and damage bonus to your whole party, which basically means you win the level 3 buffing game. Note that this applies to ALL attacks, including volleys and such, so multiple hit attacks become better with a Bard hanging around. Oh, you can probably throw in a Complete Adventurer masterwork instrument on top of that for another +1, too.

Weapon Finesse won't help you with anything. Unless you're a full-blown melee bard, you probably should be avoiding getting up close and personal as much as possible.

The 3.5 bard gets kicked in the nuts pretty hard, but as Caedrus points out there's almost as much bullshit bard stuff out there that can get your grubby mitts on that will make variously and weirdly competitive in a number of ways. The big 3.5 nerfs are:

• Perform has been fucked. You now need a whole new skill for each instrument or style you have. This means that even though they nominally hand out 2 extra skill points a level, you're actually way behind, because a high level bard needs to be able to sing, dance, play a stringed instrument and the pipes to pull their weight.
• Bardic Performances are screwed. Sorry folks, you are no longer able to inspirationally dance, and also it takes your standard action every fucking round, rather than just for the round you activate it. Thankfully, most people don't even notice this rule and indeed it's extremely vaguely written so most DMs will let you out of it.

And since skills and bardic performances were the only things you had over a sorcerer, getting both kicked in the nuts is pretty clearly a bad thing for Bards coming into the 3.5 ruleset. Fortunately the supplements bring in a bunch of bullshit that you can use to crawl back into mattering. Little pieces of power creep that add up to restoring the bard to a semblance of something that you care about if you collect them all.

For starters, there's Snowflake Wardance from It's Cold Outside. It requires that you have Perform (Dance) and also that you have Bardic Music (which I remind you can't actually be used with Dance in 3.5, so you'll need to spend an equal amount of skill ranks on a whole different style if you want to actually use your inspire courage and shit). It's a feat that lets you spend a performance to give yourself a RNG destroying bonus to attack rolls for the duration of a combat, and activating it is a free action. Now you just need to get yourself access to a damage bonus that you care about and you'll be something of a melee terror.

They also noticed that Bardic Inspire Courage isn't big enough. So their solution was to print character options that allow you to increase the magnitude of your inspire courage bonus. These take the form of low level spells, feats, and substitution levels, and they all stack. Keep in mnd that they were each written up by a different freelancer to solve the same perceived problem. You can have a +5 bonus to attack and damage by like 6th level if you put them all in a pile. Unfortunately, it requires that you dumpster dive through more books than you probably own.

-Username17

Well, I own a number of the books mentioned so far and can buy the rest. But Eberron was not on the approved list of supplements so far. I'll look into it, provided I survive my first battle.

FrankTrollman wrote:The big 3.5 nerfs are:

• Perform has been fucked. You now need a whole new skill for each instrument or style you have. This means that even though they nominally hand out 2 extra skill points a level, you're actually way behind, because a high level bard needs to be able to sing, dance, play a stringed instrument and the pipes to pull their weight.

Oh absolutely. This fucking sucked. I personally just give Bards Versatile Performer for free. Or just go back to a 3.0 esque version.

[*] Bardic Performances are screwed. Sorry folks, you are no longer able to inspirationally dance, and also it takes your standard action every fucking round, rather than just for the round you activate it. Thankfully, most people don't even notice this rule and indeed it's extremely vaguely written so most DMs will let you out of it.[/list]

Thankfully, you don't have to maintain Inspire Courage, which is the one that we care about.

For starters, there's Snowflake Wardance from It's Cold Outside. It requires that you have Perform (Dance) and also that you have Bardic Music (which I remind you can't actually be used with Dance in 3.5, so you'll need to spend an equal amount of skill ranks on a whole different style if you want to actually use your inspire courage and shit). It's a feat that lets you spend a performance to give yourself a RNG destroying bonus to attack rolls for the duration of a combat, and activating it is a free action. Now you just need to get yourself access to a damage bonus that you care about and you'll be something of a melee terror.

Yeah, great feat for a melee bard, but I didn't mention it cuz that's not what Fuchs was asking for. As for that damage bonus you care about, try Song of the White Raven, multiclassing into Crusader or Warblade while still scaling up your Inspire, getting up to 9th level maneuvers, and having Dragonfire Inspiration to get +xd6 damage for every +1 the normal inspire would have given you. Then go and do some 600 damage as a TWF whirlwind of dance dance death.

They also noticed that Bardic Inspire Courage isn't big enough. So their solution was to print character options that allow you to increase the magnitude of your inspire courage bonus. These take the form of low level spells, feats, and substitution levels, and they all stack. Keep in mnd that they were each written up by a different freelancer to solve the same perceived problem. You can have a +5 bonus to attack and damage by like 6th level

3rd level, actually.

if you put them all in a pile. Unfortunately, it requires that you dumpster dive through more books than you probably own.

-Username17

That's why I listed the things out all neatly here for him.


___

Let's have an example Bard at level 3. He uses a bow and supports people, like you said. I'm assuming 28 point buy human here:

10 Str
14 Dex
12 Con
12 Int
10 Wis
16 Cha

Skills:
UMD
Perform: Sing
Pick any other 6.

Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot, Melodic Casting, Song of the Heart (If you have Flaws allowed, maybe take Precise Shot or something)
3: Rapid Shot

Spells:
0: Don't care
1: Inspirational Boost, Grease, Silent Image

Items:
Badge of Valor, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Masterwork bow, chain shirt, shield, maybe a Vest of Resistance, don't care what else

Tactics: You start singing before combat, using Inspirational Boost and Badge of Valor. Your allies all have a +4 to attack and damage. You open up round 1 with Grease to put your enemies off balance and let your allies close in to pummel them to death. If enemies are still alive in round 2 (there's a good chance that they're NOT, because with the bonuses you radiate your allies probably eviscerated everything), you drop your shield (unless it's a buckler) and start picking them off with your bow, having a +8 or more attack roll with two attacks at 1d8+4. Your song is of course still going on, so your allies are continuing to stab things in the face.

Your AC is going to be a solid 18+, you're going to be able to skip over Concentration cuz of Melodic Casting, and your saves aren't half bad (+2 Fort, +5 Ref, +3 Will base. Add +1 to all that if you got a Vest of Resistance).

How's that, Fuchs? I skipped over the masterwork instrument and picked sing so that you could carry around your shield and bow.

As for you not having Eberron supplement, Song of the Heart has absolutely nothing to do with anything setting-specific.

Here's the feat:

Song of the Heart:
Prereqs: Nothing
Effect: You get +1 to bardic music effects.

^---this is awesome. Take it.

Looks good. I was planning on getting Grease anyway.

How do you get three feats at level 1?

Also, I have Eberron, but I need to ask the GM if it's allowed (and survive the first combat - nothing like a druid with an animal companion "holding back" while the bard gets pummeled by three thugs).

Fuchs wrote: How do you get three feats at level 1?

Stupid error on my part. Really though, just throw out the archery feats in that case, you don't need them for anything. I only included them cuz you specifically mentioned wanting those things.

The question is: What do you have for long term goals? All bards will "support," but do you want to be a melee monster with 9th level maneuvers, or do you want to be a spellcaster with 9th level spells that chains his buffs together to multiple targets for free? Or what?

Probably the spellcaster - we're lacking an arcane caster at the moment. I was thinking of charm and buff spells mostly, and utility spells, with some archery for damage dealing to fall back in situations nothing else is needed. Skills angled at Diplomacy/Bluff/Sense Motive.

(Song of the Heart needs 6 ranks in Perform to take according to my copy of Eberron, so can't be taken before level 3.)

Fuchs wrote:(Song of the Heart needs 6 ranks in Perform to take according to my copy of Eberron, so can't be taken before level 3.)

Oh. See, I'm going off memory here. *Shrug.*

So take it at level 3.

Anyways, pretty much the gold standard buffer is Bard 8 / War Weaver 1 / Recaster (or whatever) 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / The Rest of War Weaver / The Rest of Recaster (or whatever else)

Sublime Chord upgrades your spell progression so that it goes up to 9th level spells. War Weaver lets you use single target buff spells on the rest of your party. Those things combined with inspire courage basically make you the shit for buffing.

Sublime Chord looks really nice.

Fuchs wrote:Sublime Chord looks really nice.

Hell yeah. What isn't nice about showing up the party sorcerer in spellcasting?

Maybe it would be nicer if they weren't yet another level behind.

Seriously, Wizards get spells at 2x-1, sorcerers at 2x, and Sublimes 2x+1 IIRC

Boolean wrote:Maybe it would be nicer if they weren't yet another level behind.

Seriously, Wizards get spells at 2x-1, sorcerers at 2x, and Sublimes 2x+1 IIRC

Fortunately, you get to make up for that some with things like Inspire Courage, and Bard Earlies (for example, you get Otto's Irresistable Dance as a 6th). And of course the war weaver bit gives you a significant buffing advantage.

Fuchs wrote:Sublime Chord looks really nice.

Sublime Chord looks cool and all because the basic bard is so bad, but remember, there are people who get access to 9th level spells without needing to jump through hoops and suck ass first.

Gelare wrote:

Fuchs wrote:Sublime Chord looks really nice.

Sublime Chord looks cool and all because the basic bard is so bad, but remember, there are people who get access to 9th level spells without needing to jump through hoops and suck ass first.

There isn't really a "suck ass first," though. Look at the level 3 example I gave.

Remember that the ECS lets you replace Inspire Competence with any one of several bard feats, including Song of the Heart. Now, normally Song of the Heart requires inspire competence, but since the feat you gain in place of inspire competence is a bonus feat (and lacking the "must still meet the prerequisites" clause), you can ignore that.

+1 to all bardic music abilities > +2 competence bonus to a skill check.

I played a Bard in a 3.5 game a few years ago, and I would definitely recommend 1) taking a few feats to increase the power and the duration of your Bardic Music and 2) taking Spell Focus and Spell Penetration Feats to boost the power of your Enchantment Spells. You can use your Bardic Music to augment your party and use your Charm and Dominate spells to create a retinue of powerful low Will save monsters to do your bidding. If you back this up with a collection of summoning wands, you can clutter the battlefield fairly well. Pick up a retainer with Leadership and you'll have your own little private army all set and ready to go. Just be sure to use Mind Fog and re-dominate your pawns every week, and you should be in good shape.

Also: if you're not using the PRPG rules, get acquainted with Winged Elves and Troglodytes as quickly as possible so you can use Alter Self to mimic them and either sprout wings or gain a hefty natural armor bonus.

FrankTrollman wrote:

• Perform has been fucked. You now need a whole new skill for each instrument or style you have. This means that even though they nominally hand out 2 extra skill points a level, you're actually way behind, because a high level bard needs to be able to sing, dance, play a stringed instrument and the pipes to pull their weight.

Wait, why is that?

I didn't realize that it even mattered what instrument you played or how you performed.

It doesn't. It does in Pathfinder, which is another reason why Pathfail is named as such, but you can pretty much do anything with any type of performance. (Except a weapon drill, if I recall correctly.)

I think what Frank is referring to are the masterwork instruments released in CAdventurer, which have varying effects based on the instrument you're playing. That means that a bard needs to switch back and forth between them if he wants to optimize his combat efficacy. I doubt many players would bother with such a thing, though, given how much of a pain in the ass that would be.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:

• Perform has been fucked. You now need a whole new skill for each instrument or style you have. This means that even though they nominally hand out 2 extra skill points a level, you're actually way behind, because a high level bard needs to be able to sing, dance, play a stringed instrument and the pipes to pull their weight.

Wait, why is that?

I didn't realize that it even mattered what instrument you played or how you performed.

You need to sing or play to inspire courage.
You need to dance to get any of your wardances off.
You need to sing in order to fight while inspiring courage because otherwise your hands are tied up.
You need to play a handheld instrument in order to continue inspiring courage while casting spells because all Bard spells have Verbal Components.
You need to play the pipes specifically to summon and control rats.
You need to play a stringed instrument to get any of a number of other effects.

Seriously, if you want to do all the cool Bardic shit you need to Sing, Dance, Pipe, Harp, and Tambourine. Preferably all at max rank.

-Username17

Psychic Robot wrote:It doesn't.

WTF PR? Yeah it does.

(Frank seems to have beaten me to it...)

Planning the character a bit - requirements for Sublime Chord are hefty, that's going to take most of the skillpoints from level 2 to 10.

Psychic Robot wrote:It doesn't. It does in Pathfinder, which is another reason why Pathfail is named as such, but you can pretty much do anything with any type of performance. (Except a weapon drill, if I recall correctly.)

I think what Frank is referring to are the masterwork instruments released in CAdventurer, which have varying effects based on the instrument you're playing. That means that a bard needs to switch back and forth between them if he wants to optimize his combat efficacy. I doubt many players would bother with such a thing, though, given how much of a pain in the ass that would be.

Speaking of Pathfail, I had an amusing run in with a Paizil.

But back on topic, it'd make a funny picture to draw a Bard actually doing all that shit at the same time.